Follow-up
This is a follow-up to my previous blog post. Looking back maybe I shouldn't have added the second question. It is important to me but the first question, is what I am really interested in. What did this girl do that she needs to be forgiven of?
If Christ died for our sins, what sins did this girl commit?
I can accept that Christ died to heal our broken nature, but when it comes to forgiving our sins, I have trouble. I think there are a whole lot of people who are victims of this world and haven't had much choice when it comes to their "sinful" actions.
If a child is born blind you don't say that the child is a sinner because of blindness. Mistakes they make due to being blind, you don't count against them. Hopefully you work with them to give them skills to cope in a sighted world.
I have a big problem with this idea that we are sinners condemned to die because of our crimes, and that Christ pardons us.
If we are going to use a court room analogy I think it would be more appropriate that we are let off on an insanity plea.
What happens to the girl I described is a roadblock of my faith. I was taught that people cannot be saved unless they believe in Jesus, or if they never hear of Jesus then they must "live up to the light they are given." I didn't add this but the girl in my story never heard of Jesus and was never given any light, only darkness. Therefore according to what I have been taught she will not be in heaven.
I don't agree with what I was taught, and I don't think the Bible always agrees with it either, but it isn't entirely clear what happens in cases like the one I described. There are many views on the nature of salvation, and all gleaned from the same Bible.
I would like to believe in a loving God who will save this girl, but that means having a very open view towards salvation. Our situation is not as dire as the girl I described, but we are all victims of this world to some extent. None of have a perfect life, or a perfect understanding of God. If God's grace will cover only those who believe in him or those who "live up to the light they are given" it doesn't seem fair. Many people are never given a good reason to believe in God, and as hard as we try nobody can live up to the light they are given. We only stumble towards the light.
Many people solve this dilemma by accepting God as just and loving, and believing he will do the perfect thing.
I am not willing to give God the benefit of the doubt. The suffering of the world today, and indeed many actions attributed to him in the Bible, make me wonder if God has not become blinded by his own brightness.
I am not willing to put my trust in a God who will let the victims of this world go into eternal death for "sins" they couldn't help but commit.
If Christ died for our sins, what sins did this girl commit?
I can accept that Christ died to heal our broken nature, but when it comes to forgiving our sins, I have trouble. I think there are a whole lot of people who are victims of this world and haven't had much choice when it comes to their "sinful" actions.
If a child is born blind you don't say that the child is a sinner because of blindness. Mistakes they make due to being blind, you don't count against them. Hopefully you work with them to give them skills to cope in a sighted world.
I have a big problem with this idea that we are sinners condemned to die because of our crimes, and that Christ pardons us.
If we are going to use a court room analogy I think it would be more appropriate that we are let off on an insanity plea.
What happens to the girl I described is a roadblock of my faith. I was taught that people cannot be saved unless they believe in Jesus, or if they never hear of Jesus then they must "live up to the light they are given." I didn't add this but the girl in my story never heard of Jesus and was never given any light, only darkness. Therefore according to what I have been taught she will not be in heaven.
I don't agree with what I was taught, and I don't think the Bible always agrees with it either, but it isn't entirely clear what happens in cases like the one I described. There are many views on the nature of salvation, and all gleaned from the same Bible.
I would like to believe in a loving God who will save this girl, but that means having a very open view towards salvation. Our situation is not as dire as the girl I described, but we are all victims of this world to some extent. None of have a perfect life, or a perfect understanding of God. If God's grace will cover only those who believe in him or those who "live up to the light they are given" it doesn't seem fair. Many people are never given a good reason to believe in God, and as hard as we try nobody can live up to the light they are given. We only stumble towards the light.
Many people solve this dilemma by accepting God as just and loving, and believing he will do the perfect thing.
I am not willing to give God the benefit of the doubt. The suffering of the world today, and indeed many actions attributed to him in the Bible, make me wonder if God has not become blinded by his own brightness.
I am not willing to put my trust in a God who will let the victims of this world go into eternal death for "sins" they couldn't help but commit.
Comments
I don't know if this really helps at all, but I know Paul says that there will be many in Heaven who have never heard Jesus' name. One of those people may be this girl you are referring to. Wouldn't that be awesome!
I think things are confused a lot when it comes to sin and judgment. This is something I am still working to sort out myself. In the situation with this girl the question is - is she the sinner or the victim of sin? I think there is a big difference there. (I recognize that we are all sinners, but in regard to this issue - does that make sense?)
I think all too often we count things as sin that are things WE see as sin, but that God counts differently. In fact, when I look at the new testament, Jesus is the most gracious person to "sinners" of all of the characters in the whole of the testament. He pities sinners and victims of sin (like lepers, the woman at the well, the adulterous woman, etc. - even Judas) so much.
That's something to think about anyway.
I also have another story to get you thinking. (I have to admit, mine is hypothetical and not real, so it may not be as good as yours, but cut me some slack. ;))
What if a child steals a watch from a store for her mommy's birthday. She has seen her older brother steal before and doesn't realize that it's wrong. Is it still wrong that she stole? Yes. Is she a bad girl - no way! She had no clue what she was doing was wrong. Are there still consequences? Yes. Either the store looses money or she has to take the watch back and she may or may not get into trouble. Will she go to jail for stealing? It's possible, but likely someone will step in for her, speak to her defense, and she will not have to go to juvy or the legal system at all. That's what Christ does for us - he steps in for us.
Would the situation be the same if the girl was older and knew better than stealing? Probably not. Could she still be forgiven for her crime? If she was really sorry for what she did and had someone speak for her, it's possible. Christ will speak for us and forgive us even if we know what we did was wrong if we are truly sorry.
I don't know, just another thought story to bounce around in your head. Let me know what you think.
Thanks for taking the time to respond. I really appreciate you taking the time to explore this with me.
I agree that Jesus response to "sinners" is very gracious and it gives me hope. I like this passage.
From John 9.
1As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
3"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life."
I think some of my hang-ups are about the way we have been taught about forgiveness and grace. God's response may be different to what we have been taught.
Also I don't see the "Old Testament" God as being so gracious. I am really wrestling with how much of the Bible to accept.
I think your story of the little girl stealing is a good example something that looks like sin, but isn't, but I wonder if her older self might be forgiven even if she never felt sorry. Does God's grace depend on how sorry we feel about something? Are we saved by the level of our own sorrowfulness? I do so many "sinful" things on a daily basis. I would, and have, gone crazy racing around trying to make myself feel really sorry for all of it.
I think this world has messed so many people up so much that even if they technically know something is wrong, they have few resources to stop themselves from doing it.
I do think people ought to try and better their lives, but even Paul admits this is difficult.
Romans 7
14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
If God's grace is our only hope, then I think it ought to apply to anyone who doesn't outright reject it in full knowledge of what they are doing.